Daredevil Message Board

[rgj]

[james castle]

Look, just to get things straigh here: what you and Stanley are saying is that the an powerful creator of the universe that is both omnipresent and omnipotent literally (within the confines of the comic) came down and stopped Matt's fever. That the Christian God played a central role in Born Again. And not just themeatically, and not just as an idea but as an actual character just like Matt or Ben or Captain America or Foggy. You're saying that Born Again is actually a story about Matt and Karen and the Kingpin and a very literal and very active Christian God who plays a key role in the story.

Okay, I know that you're saying "well, it could possibly be about that" but that doesn't make a difference.

Why? Because it's ludicris. Read the frickin' comic. The idea that a Christian God is literally a character who walks around (admittedly off panel) and is engaged in the story is just flat out ridiculous. It's ridiculous. An actual character. Part of the cast. Ridiculous.

And no, I don't equate god with hope. I do equate him with boring stories in which every character in them would be literally fearless. If god really is riding shotgun who would fear anything? And we're not talking about a vague, sense of a godly force. We're talking about an actual individual who sits around listening to prayers and then taking direct, tylonol type action.
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JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

[Jim B.]

Personally I always felt that scene was meant to be decided for yourself by the reader of the story. It is not a cut and dried thing/fact like "Daredevil's suit is red" I don't feel that Miller is saying flat out that Maggie prayed for Matt and for that reason God saved him and he got better. He may have gotten better on his own. But he is definetly implying it by the fact Matt was really sick and could die until after she prayed for him he "miraculously" was well again.

I don't think you are really supposed to know if it really happened or didn't happen actually. You are just left to wonder "Was he saved by divine intervention or not? Wow that was kind of cool, what an awesome story" It may just be like others have said a touching scene showing a woman who has faith in her God and love and care for a man who may be her son (Yes I know Kevin Smith said she really was his Mother but I am choosing to ignore that and Guardian Devil until the end of time ) and that's all. It just in how you interpret it.
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"This isn't hell, but you can see it from here." -The Crow

[train]

[rgj]

[Stanley]

[rgj]

There are a few points jc and I have disagreed on (by the way, I forgot to comend jc on his zing at the DD movie, always a nice touch). We've disagreed on Elektra as it pertains to her being "infected" by evil, which Chichester badly claimed. We have a different opinion on the MWoF "Elektra." And, then there is this Born Again/God/No God/A man without hope . . . stuff.

Look, jc says he doesn't equate god with hope (when applied to the quote). But, that's not true. In previous back and forths, I clearly recall jc claiming that since Matt is "hopless" he is 1) an atheist and 2) God has nothing to do with BA. I clearly remember his arguemnt that did equate hope with God. Heck, even in this thead he said something to the effect that "god is all hopey." Or somehting like that.

Seriously, I just don't see how this quote puts the last nail in the coffin of confirming that this has story eliminates God or proves that Matt is atheist or whatever the point was.

Perhaps a reminder. Maybe for another thead as Stanley suggested.

rgj

[Katerine]

I'm a little confused... what exactly are we arguing about here? When this thread first started, it seemed to be about Matt's religious beliefs and devoutness (or lack thereof), but now it seems to be about God's place in the MU (which actually exists, or doesn't exist, entirely independently of Matt).

Personally, it's been a long time since I've read Born Again, but from what I recall, the entire question of whether God had a hand in Matt's recovery was left at just that: a question. Just like real life, actually. And just like real life, people could read into it and come up with a number of different interpretations, which is exactly the way it should be. Regardless of whether you see God interfering in the comic or not, though, it doesn't detract from the human elements of that part of the story - they still exist, either way.

I'm far more interested in Matt's own views when it comes to the comics, myself. Personally, I see him as a lost person. So much has happened to him, he doesn't know what to believe, and the avenues that used to be open to him (I'm particularly thinking of confession) aren't open to him anymore, I don't think. Between the outing, and more importantly, the fact that Karen was killed in a church (I think it might have even been his church), I don't think he's able to seek guidance there anymore, and this has contributed a lot to the sense of chaos and loss in his life. He used to have a place to go for guidance and hope, and he doesn't anymore.

It's really quite sad...

[james castle]

Someone start a "What's the Point of Born Again Anyway?" thread and I'll start kicking ass and takin' names. And lucky me, everyone's name is already listed beside their posts. Etc. Etc.

As for this godly debate:

My position is this: Matt gets hurt. His mother (who is a nun) brings him to her chruch's hostile where they patch him up. He starts to feel okay. He gets a fever. Maggie, the nun, thinks that no earthly force can save him. Maggie, the nun, prays for her son in a very touching scene that indicates that she feels guilty for something she has done in her past. Matt's fever breaks. Maggie, the nun, thinks god did it. The only suggestion that god might be involved comes from Maggie, the nun.

Given the above it literally never even crossed my mind that Matt got better with god's help. I never even thought anyone thought that until this thread. Mind you, this is even true about the first time I read the thing when I was in my teens - a point in my life when I was much less anti-religious (though I didn't believe in god (I was a teenager after all)).

I think there's a lot of factors that contribute to my position. Frank Miller's work, for example. I can't believe people think Frank Miller snuck a Deus Ex Machina into Born Again. Plus, Born Again as a whole. Again, I just can't believe people think an important part of Born Again is god showing up.

Those things aside, I think the biggest reason it never occured to me that god was in Born Again was that god isn't in Born Again. There is just no evidence he's there. There just isn't. The strongest piece of evidence is that Matt got better. But there's an explaination for that (the "work" done by the nuns or whoever). Plus, he got better before his fever without god's help. So that doesn't really get you anywhere.

rgj says I'm applying "real world" thinking too much. I don't think so. However, I am applying the same thought process that I would apply to people who think god exists in the real world. It's like this:

In real life when someone is like "God rocks! Oh yeah! Plus, he totally exists in the real world!" one says "really? do you have any evidence of that?". Of course they never do. Sometimes they go "but the world exists. that's proof". And then one says "but there's for that". So it isn't really proof.

It's the same here. Everyone is saying "God totally exists in Born Again" and I say "really? do you have any evidence of that?". Of course no one does.

So it's not that I'm applying a real world standard. It's just that I'm applying a normal argument. I'd say the same thing if someone claimed Wolverine was in Born Again. He isn't.

I think why we've run into such loggerheads is that just we are applying different standards of "proof" or interpretation. One thing that surely everyone can agree on is that the idea of proof or interpretation gets relaxed when people start to god-out. Half a page of dialogue from a nun and everyone thinks god is central to the story. Sigh.

Oh yeah, and I'll also say that the religious amoung also have a cute way of clinging to questions as proof. "God might be there so he is". Um. Not really. "It's open for people to take what they want from it". The battle cry of the people who want to take what they want no matter how unfounded.

As for Stanley: look it's nice that the board has been a bit more fun over the past few days and I don't mean to put a damper on that. At the same time I have no idea what you're saying.

He saved Matt how?

[Stanley]

[james castle]

[rgj]

Look forward to the thread!!

If you'd like, you can throw in a "Matt was/wasn't insane in #226 "Warriors" statement. That way we can have a free for all and battle on all sorts of fronts!

Perhaps, all participants should clarify, as well, what "For I have shown him, a man without hope is a man without fear," means to them.

rgj

[Katerine]

I'm just going to focus on the one thing that looks like it might be at least partially directed at me. 'Cause, honestly, I don't much care about this whole argument - it all seems kind of silly to me.

[james castle]

Wolverine might be there. Full stop.

With Cyclops. Okay, now full stop.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

[Katerine]