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| How would you grade the new Batman film? |
| A+ |
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25% |
[ 4 ] |
| A |
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43% |
[ 7 ] |
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12% |
[ 2 ] |
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18% |
[ 3 ] |
| B |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| C+ |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| C |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| D/F |
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0% |
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| Total Votes : 16 |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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 Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | | [img]Who do you hope is the next villain? |
The natural progression of the existing storyline would be to bring back the Joker and introduce Harley Quinn as the doctor who attempts to treat him in jail/alsyum. Then, as jc nicely phrases it, as with Dent, we'd see the Joker turn Harley. As unquestionably great as Heath was, there's nothing that says someone else couldn't play the role as great (if not better).
As my Daddy says: Everyone's expendable.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| blacktyphoid wrote: | | rgj wrote: | | [img]Who do you hope is the next villain? |
The natural progression of the existing storyline would be to bring back the Joker and introduce Harley Quinn as the doctor who attempts to treat him in jail/alsyum. Then, as jc nicely phrases it, as with Dent, we'd see the Joker turn Harley. As unquestionably great as Heath was, there's nothing that says someone else couldn't play the role as great (if not better).
As my Daddy says: Everyone's expendable.
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blacktyphoid |
Dunno. His death was such a big part of the lead up to the movie. Like, the studio didn't use it marketing wise (thank heavens) but the public's mind is really, really set on Health as Joker. I think any attempt to replace him would result in massive (probably unjustified) backlash.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Solid Snake PAC
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Conroe, Tx
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| I think that you sadly have to keep the Joker in the next one. I loved that he didn't die. I grow tired of villains being killed in films. But yeah, having Harley turn to Joker's side would be a blast to see. BUT if they do bring back the Joker, I know Daniel Day-Lewis would do it. Ledger and him had been buddies for a bit. I know Day-Lewis could do it easily, he's that strong of an actor. I'd hope for more Joker plus his Harley, and than maybe Catwoman or the Riddler. Those are the only ones that can realistically work in Nolan's Gotham. |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: |
Dunno. His death was such a big part of the lead up to the movie. Like, the studio didn't use it marketing wise (thank heavens) but the public's mind is really, really set on Health as Joker. I think any attempt to replace him would result in massive (probably unjustified) backlash. |
You're forgetting the fact that the sequel will take three or four years to make. By that time all the issues you raise will be ancient history.
I like Solid Snake's choice of Daniel Day-Lewis. He would be brilliant. I can see critics and fans alike saying that his Joker was as great as - if perhaps different from - Heath's. But if not DD-L, they'll be someone else as good, if not better.
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| blacktyphoid wrote: | | james castle wrote: |
Dunno. His death was such a big part of the lead up to the movie. Like, the studio didn't use it marketing wise (thank heavens) but the public's mind is really, really set on Health as Joker. I think any attempt to replace him would result in massive (probably unjustified) backlash. |
You're forgetting the fact that the sequel will take three or four years to make. By that time all the issues you raise will be ancient history.
I like Solid Snake's choice of Daniel Day-Lewis. He would be brilliant. I can see critics and fans alike saying that his Joker was as great as - if perhaps different from - Heath's. But if not DD-L, they'll be someone else as good, if not better.
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blacktyphoid |
Besides, even if Heath was alive, who's to say he would be interested in appearing in a sequel?
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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I think you guys are looking at this from a comic book fan perspective. I hate to break it to you but movies like DK make tonnes of money because all the comic nerds (like us) go see them but so does everyone else. As far as everyone else is concerned the Heath/Joker/death thing is massive. There's oscar talk for heaven's sake. It was his last role. You honestly think that'll blow over by the time the next movie comes out? You think non-nerds care about Batman's limited rogues gallery or the fact that it would be cool if Joker came back? Nope. Any attempt to re-cast Joker would be a massive slap in the face. I think you guys are spending too much time reading the nerd pages and are ignoring what's happening in the mainstream.
The only, only possibility I could see is if they jumped the series forward. Like if the next one was actually akin to Dark Knight Returns. Then they could use someone like Daniel Day Lewis (whose age would make absolutely no sense at all if the series didn't jump forward).
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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train
Guardian Devil
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 659
Location: Hell's Pantry
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Then they could use someone like Daniel Day Lewis (whose age would make absolutely no sense at all if the series didn't jump forward). |
I think that audiences would be willing to look past the obvious age differential between Ledger and Lewis. Consider the Hannibal Lecter movies. The last in the series, "Hannibal Rising" was filmed a good time after "Silence of the Lambs". Anthony Hopkins played a "younger" Hannibal in "Rising" and the average movie goer was willing to look past that fact.
As far as the general audience not being able to "move on" after Ledger's death, whatever. To imply that someone will stay away from a Batman movie simply because someone else is playing the Joker is ridiculous
I haven't seen the movie yet, and can't comment on Ledger's performace, but the thought of Lewis playing the role is an excellent idea. When he was filming "Gangs of New York" he NEVER broke the character of Butcher Bill....even on off days. Talk about creepy. |
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Solid Snake PAC
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Conroe, Tx
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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In the film circles and what not, it's very talked about that Nolan could hopefully break the trilogy curse of sorts. I think this film is critically hard to follow up on regardless. Yes, Ledger is dead. BUT the character isn't, a great nod to comic continuity of sorts. Again DDL is rumored (that whatever filter these things are put up against) for the role SHOULD it ever be put up when and IF Nolan does continue the franchise. I don't think WB wants to lose critical and financial loss if the same people don't work on this thing. Nolan is clearly in control of the world presented in th films, people LOVE what he's done to it. And Christian Bale seems like a man of higher integrity should they ever change Director. I'm sure he'd pay the price based on the contract he's, again supposedly, been hired to do which is 3 films. DDL was a dear friend to Ledger, who I assume may have indirectly taken an influence in performance subtlety. Though clearly not the HEAVY characterization that DDL goes thru. DDL could do it, would he? I don't know. It's clear he misses Ledger's friendship and work, but would he finish the job that Ledger did if these arcs continue? Maybe. Sorry, if I get kinda long winded on the subject. I'm a film major and a comic lover, though I've never been a consistent Batman reader, it's those great arcs like Year One and others that make a somewhat well versed fan of the character..also Wikipedia helps. Knowing the film industry workings intensively as well puts me at a somewhat odds, at times, with what the comic fan in me wants in comparison to what my inner filmmaker expects and hopes to happen.
Again WB can't risk not continuing this franchise critically and financially now. It's become a bigger beast than I assume they thought as they were putting together. Now they have to wait, once this thing is out of theaters and while putting, I'm sure of right now they're doing a bit of work on it as well (btw Blu Ray will do what IMAX did with the expansion of top and bottom by the full image, making Blu Ray the original aspect ratio of sorts for the film while DVD will keep standard letterbox) this thing for video. In this wait they will collect and work with Nolan, it's almost a guarantee that they are practically giving him free rein (which is unheard of in the highest of percentages of control given to any filmmaker) to follow TDK or not. Again...my filmmaker is spewing out.
On the topic of villains, Catwoman and The Riddler seem like closer choices due to the reality based Gotham City that we're given. Again if Joker is back, Harley Quinn would be much appreciated as a tip of the hat to fans of the cartoon and now the comics. Of course, the fan fav pick for The Penguin played by Phillip Seymour Hoffman as the man he is now in the comics is always a fun option... |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Hahaha. I'm not ever going to try to reply to your "argument". Man, that's a lot of assuming. While you're making up crazy facts and opinning on DDL's feelings towards Heath why don't you just go the whole hog and claim that they've already made a third movie with DDL as the Joker?
Let's all just come back in a couple years. I'll laugh, you'll admit you're wrong. It'll be good times.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Solid Snake PAC
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 130
Location: Conroe, Tx
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if I really present an argument. I'm just saying how it could go, if it goes in whatever direction WB goes at all. It's just how it makes sense to me....  |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | I think you guys are looking at this from a comic book fan perspective. I hate to break it to you but movies like DK make tonnes of money because all the comic nerds (like us) go see them but so does everyone else. As far as everyone else is concerned the Heath/Joker/death thing is massive. There's oscar talk for heaven's sake. It was his last role. You honestly think that'll blow over by the time the next movie comes out? You think non-nerds care about Batman's limited rogues gallery or the fact that it would be cool if Joker came back? Nope. |
Yep.
You've said it yourself, my silly boy. This movie is massive because it's a great crime story, like the Departed, and not generally perceived to be a comic book movie. Four years from now, if they make another great Batman crime movie, that includes a great, captivating Joker performance (should they go that way), I guarantee people (nerds and non-nerds alike) will pay to see it, regardless of who's under all that white make-up. Yeah, four years from now people will fondly remember the Oscar winning performance of Heath Ledger. But by then that will be a thing of the past. The here-and-now in four years time will be the great Joker performance of that time. And if it and the movie are truly great, people WILL COME TO SEE BOTH.
Btw, stick to being a lawyer. Your talent as a mind-reader leaves something to be desired.
| james castle wrote: | | Any attempt to re-cast Joker would be a massive slap in the face. |
You're being unbelievably naive! A slap in the face to whom? A dead actor? All other people - and that includes the nerds, non-nerds, movie lovers, movie executives, Warner Bros., Time-Warner and the next Batman movie's investors, will care about is if the next movie is great and makes a profit. Let me explain basic economics to you: if it's great, people will pay to see it; if people pay to see it, it will make money; if it makes money, they will make a seqel. And so on. That's all there is to it.
Again, stick to being a lawyer.
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blacktyphoid
P.S.: The Dark Knight will not be Heath Ledger's last film. |
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hylozoii
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Solid Snake PAC wrote: | | I think that you sadly have to keep the Joker in the next one. I loved that he didn't die. I grow tired of villains being killed in films. But yeah, having Harley turn to Joker's side would be a blast to see. BUT if they do bring back the Joker, I know Daniel Day-Lewis would do it. Ledger and him had been buddies for a bit. I know Day-Lewis could do it easily, he's that strong of an actor. I'd hope for more Joker plus his Harley, and than maybe Catwoman or the Riddler. Those are the only ones that can realistically work in Nolan's Gotham. |
Yeah, that would be great. A phenomenal Irish actor playing the Joker. "Why so serious? I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE!" No, Daniel Day-Lewis would not fit. The next film would obviously include Catwoman. The Penguin has some potential as a political or mob boss and The Riddler as a computer hacker. Chris Nolan likes to ground his work in realism more than superpowers so Mr. Freeze is out.
The movie was excellent. Anybody could find some flaws I guess. I considered it "Two movies for the price of one." I won't say more about Ledger because there's nothing more to be said. Any actor in the Batman suit would have to distort their voice once in character. It's recognized by all Batman fans that this is what Bruce Wayne does as Batman. Not much more unrealistic as Clark Kent and his glasses.
You have to give it up for Aaron Eckart also. His acting was on par with the other actors. The transformation was excellent to see and the scene with The Joker and Two-Face were hilarious and sad. In comics, the villians are normally the ones that used to be good. What surprised me was that the previews never mentioned this movie being about Harvey Dent/Two-Face.
Some parts of this movie mirrored the Frank Miller books, The Dark Knight and Year One. It was great to see. I went home and read Year One again. Love that book.
This movie takes you on both ends of the spectrum. It makes you laugh, mostly it's dark and brooding. It depressed me and then the black inmate took the detonator and threw it out the window. That really let me know that Nolan's story had a theme and it transitioned from Batman Begins to The Dark Knight. Batman puts it best in Batman Begins: "Gotham isn't beyond saving." and "As long as it takes to show the people of Gotham that their city doesn't belong to the criminals and the corrupt." |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| blacktyphoid wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | I think you guys are looking at this from a comic book fan perspective. I hate to break it to you but movies like DK make tonnes of money because all the comic nerds (like us) go see them but so does everyone else. As far as everyone else is concerned the Heath/Joker/death thing is massive. There's oscar talk for heaven's sake. It was his last role. You honestly think that'll blow over by the time the next movie comes out? You think non-nerds care about Batman's limited rogues gallery or the fact that it would be cool if Joker came back? Nope. |
Yep.
You've said it yourself, my silly boy. This movie is massive because it's a great crime story, like the Departed, and not generally perceived to be a comic book movie. Four years from now, if they make another great Batman crime movie, that includes a great, captivating Joker performance (should they go that way), I guarantee people (nerds and non-nerds alike) will pay to see it, regardless of who's under all that white make-up. Yeah, four years from now people will fondly remember the Oscar winning performance of Heath Ledger. But by then that will be a thing of the past. The here-and-now in four years time will be the great Joker performance of that time. And if it and the movie are truly great, people WILL COME TO SEE BOTH.
Btw, stick to being a lawyer. Your talent as a mind-reader leaves something to be desired.
| james castle wrote: | | Any attempt to re-cast Joker would be a massive slap in the face. |
You're being unbelievably naive! A slap in the face to whom? A dead actor? All other people - and that includes the nerds, non-nerds, movie lovers, movie executives, Warner Bros., Time-Warner and the next Batman movie's investors, will care about is if the next movie is great and makes a profit. Let me explain basic economics to you: if it's great, people will pay to see it; if people pay to see it, it will make money; if it makes money, they will make a seqel. And so on. That's all there is to it.
Again, stick to being a lawyer.
________________
blacktyphoid
P.S.: The Dark Knight will not be Heath Ledger's last film. |
Wait, stick to being a lawyer as opposed to what? Quitting and becoming a professional forum poster? I assume you heard the "stick to being a [whatever that person does]" line somewhere and really like it but, honestly, it doesn't really apply here. So. I dunno. Try another line maybe?
I enjoy how you threw in "should they go that way" this time. Nice little out just in case Joker isn't in the next one (which he won't be).
Yes, it'd be a slap in the face to a dead person and everyone who considered him playing that role special and unique.
I giggle at your understanding of "basic economics".
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Wow, I didn't expect this movie to be so awesome! |
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blacktyphoid
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| hylozoii wrote: | | You have to give it up for Aaron Eckart also. His acting was on par with the other actors. The transformation was excellent to see and the scene with The Joker and Two-Face were hilarious and sad. In comics, the villians are normally the ones that used to be good. What surprised me was that the previews never mentioned this movie being about Harvey Dent/Two-Face. |
I liked Eckart, too. For all Eckart fans, I suggest you rent "Thank You For Smoking". It's a dark comedy in which he plays the chief lobbiest for the tobbacco industry. Very funny.
But I thought his Two-Face make-up looked a little cheesy - like something out of a "B" level horror movie or a bad interpretation of the Terminator's peeling face.
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