Daredevil Message Board

[Neilan]

I've always felt that a truly Socialist country could never succeed as it has to function within a Capitalistic world.

[jumonji]

I just wanted to thank everyone for voting Obama into office!

One last thing about the ideology debate. I'm a little stunned by you guys actually advocating bona fide socialism and even communism. I know lots of people say things like "communism would never work but it's a nice thought." I never even thought it was a nice thought. Not only do I think that communism would create a nightmare, I even think it goes against human nature (it's not a coincidence that every communist experiment has failed - badly).

Socialism creates nothing but poverty and is only good for distributing the wealth that has already been created. Capitalism creates wealth, but has few mechanisms for distributing it. That is why a successful society, in my opinion, must include aspects of both. I support relatively high taxation, universal health care and a basic safety net for all people. But it is on the (relatively) free market where the resources to provide these things are created. Any one is free to disagree with me, but this is my personal conviction.

And JC is absolutely right in that Marx didn't invent the term "socialism" (I also forget who did).
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The Other Murdock Papers

[james castle]

I'm not surprised you're so pro-capitalism. Unwavering and yet basically unfounded belief in the wonderfulness of capitalism is like a religion these days. My advocacy of communism goes like this:

The problem with capitalism is that there necessarily has to be winners and losers. The whole thing is based on a theory of "human nature" (more on that below) in which people are constantly motivated to out do one another. If there are no losers then there are no winners and the whole thing falls to pieces. The problem I have with this senario is that, in real life, the losers are very poor people who literally die in the streets. The problem is made worse by the fact that these people are, through no fault of their own, usually pretty stupid and/or mentally ill or in some other way naturally disadvantaged. Capitalism has no way of addressing that issue. In fact, the system needs a set of ridiculously poor people to motivate the others. If you're fine with a system that casts of humans as waste for the greater good that's up to you. Although, I'm surprised you're "stunned" by people not agreeing with that.

Everytime someone refers to "human nature" the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and alarm bells start ringing in my head. I assume the "human nature" you refer to is that everyone is naturally selfish or naturally competative or some such nonsense. The problem with this is that it's just not true. There are loads of people who lead selfless lives. People who work hard to benefit others. There's no reason everyone couldn't be like that. I find any "conviction" that takes "we're all selfish bastards" for granted a little misplaced.
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JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

[Francesco]

[jumonji]

Do you actually read what I post before deciding for me what my views are? I'm surprised that you can boil anything I just said into the complete misrepresentation of my views that follows below, but I'll get to that.

[james castle]

[jumonji]

[Stanley]

Attacking the "If you don't vote you have no right to complain" bit from a different angle...

Let's say you voted for someone awful, who's just really doing an awful job in office. Their approval ratings are plummeting, so low that numbers would dictate that even some of his/her supporters are now backtracking.

Do you have a right to complain? If so, why? You weren't smart enough to look at his policies, interpret them, and discern his behavior. If you vote for a horrible leader, you have no right to complain. It means you showed poor judgment.

Now, here's where I might drag us into a locked thread, and I apologize in advance: a lot of people like to say, "our soldiers died so that you could vote." And I know what they mean, that free speech matters, that an open election tends to define us from oppressed countries...but I think if you looked at the causes of wars we were involved in, the heading of 'voting' came in fourth (at the highest) in the 'what we were fighting for' list. Troops don't typically say they're fighting so we can vote--they usually say something like "because there are bad people in this world that need to be stopped". Evil isn't measured by rigging an election. (I mean, JFK wasn't that bad a guy! BA-DUM-BUM) Instead, it's usually defined by atrocities and greed.

Sure, voting is part of the ideological differences of the nations we tangled with. I do get that. But I just find it hard to believe that people can firmly believe that if someone doesn't vote, not only are they not allowed to complain, but they aren't being patriotic.

JC's right when he talked about voting as a symbol (sorry for the horrible paraphrasing). The funny thing is, voting's been twisted into this necessary patriotic duty by largely Republican interests. They are offended we don't go to the polls.

...But just by the sheer numbers, if everyone in this country voted, the Democrats would win hands down.

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If the system really did work, we wouldn't have just two parties. People like to say you can change the system, but you can't--there's too much money at stake to move the two major parties. You generally have to play in their sandboxes if you want to win an election.

Sadly (and I say this because I'll be using a comic example), if you want to change the system, you have to reject it first. And since nobody's gonna go all V for Vendetta out there (not me, I'm actually making a little money here), the idea of not voting is the best second alternative there is.

And being constrained to those choices is way worse than someone on a soapbox telling you that you can't complain since you didn't vote.


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Oh, and I voted for Obama.

[james castle]

[rgj]

Here is (the late) George Carlin's take on voting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efKguI0NFek
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rgj

[Jim B.]

I am Canadian and of course could not vote, but if I had I would have voted for Obama. I am glad that people in america seem to be waking up and realizing that the ultra conservative ultra capatalism of the Republicans is just not working. I am glad Obama got in and hopefully things will change for the better now. I look back at the last 8 years and things just haven't been good at all. The only good thing is people like Jon Stewart and Conan O'Brien have had a lot of great comedy from the White House to work with.

As for voting here at home I used to do it but just gave up on it. It's really for the same reasons JC said too. I do not like the conservatives and the liberals but unfortunetly the majority here vote for them. They are basically America's version of the Dems and Republicans. I personally like the more socialist stance of the third party here called the NDP. I used to vote for them all of the time but finally gave up on it because they are never going to get in. They are lucky if they even gain a seat or two in an election. Voting only works for you if you vote with the majority and that to me is the problem with it. As for saying you have no right to complain about the system if you don't vote? hogwash... I agree with what Stanley and JC said about it perfectly.
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"This isn't hell, but you can see it from here." -The Crow